Live Chat

By Frans De Waal

"Without God, we will live like animals!"

After listening to the debate between Bill O'Reilly and Richard Dawkins, it struck me again that the resistance to evolutionary theory largely stems from the illusion that without God there can be no morality. Some believers feel threatened by evolutionary theory not because the theory is right or wrong -- the evidence doesn't seem to matter much to them -- but because accepting it would mean accepting that we have been created by natural processes including our morality. The final part is what bothers them the most.

O'Reilly exclaimed that at least Jesus had "advanced the human condition in a moralistic way" and another believer, Reverend Al Sharpton, expressed the same sentiment in a 2007 debate in the New York Public Library:

"If there is no order to the universe, and therefore some being, some force that ordered it, then who determines what is right or wrong? There is nothing immoral if there's nothing in charge."


Similarly, I have heard people literally echo Dostoevsky's Ivan Karamazov, exclaiming that "If there is no God, I am free to rape my neighbor!"

Perhaps it is just me, but I'd be wary of anyone whose belief system is the only thing standing between them and repulsive behavior. Why not assume that our humanity, including the self-control needed for a livable society, is built into us? Does anyone truly believe that our ancestors lacked rules of right and wrong before they had religion? Did they never assist others in need, or complain about an unfair deal?

Human morality must be quite a bit older than religion and civilization. It may, in fact, be older than humanity itself. Other primates live in highly structured social groups in which rules and inhibitions apply and mutual aid is a daily occurrence. Acts of genuine kindness do occur in animals as they do in humans. Altruistic behavior serves a cooperative group life, which benefits the actors of such behavior, yet the behavior is fueled by its own autonomous motivations, which vary from self-serving to other-regarding.

The animal kingdom offers so many examples that I surely cannot summarize them here (see my new book, The Age of Empathy), but the interesting part is not so much whether animals have empathy and compassion, but how it works.

In one experiment, we placed two capuchin monkeys side by side: separate, but in full view. One of them needed to barter with us with small plastic tokens. The critical test came when we offered a choice between two differently colored tokens with different meaning: one token was "selfish," the other "prosocial." If the bartering monkey picked the selfish token, it received a small piece of apple for returning it, but its partner got nothing. The prosocial token, on the other hand, rewarded both monkeys equally at the same time. The monkeys gradually began to prefer the prosocial token. The procedures were repeated many times with different pairs of monkeys and different sets of tokens, and the monkeys kept picking the prosocial option showing how much they care about each other's welfare.

A flourishing new field of evolutionary ethics focuses on how humans solve moral dilemmas (usually not in a rational Kantian way), which parts of the brain are involved (often old "emotional" parts), why moral tendencies evolved in the human species (probably to promote cooperation), what kind of animal parallels can be found (from prosocial tendencies to obeying social rules), how empathy evolved out of mammalian maternal care (which explains why in human adults the hormone oxytocin stimulates trust and empathy), and how religion piggy-backs on moral sentiments to promote a cohesive society. The sequence of how various tendencies came into being is: first social instincts and empathy, then morality, and finally religion. This is of course quite the opposite from the origin story of Christian religion.

If human morality is part of the larger scheme of nature, there is neither a good reason to look at evolutionary theory as undermining morality nor to look at God as a requirement for it. Raping your neighbor is destructive to society whether you believe in God or not. Conversely, I have never seen convincing evidence that a belief in God keeps people from immoral behavior. Those who think that without God humanity would lack a moral compass totally underestimate the antiquity of our moral sense.

The original can be found here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frans-de- ... 16473.html

Even in the animal kingdom, there seems to be a least a bit of morality. You never see lion cubs ripping each others' flesh off. However, you may see a monkey rape another monkey.

I believe it's simple instinct and maybe even a side-effect of "love" and "care". To me, love is what created morals. The only thing I have against my own theory is that love is a bitch.

_________________
"My word and world holds ground and is real
Your world is like floods of poisoned water
A language spoken with spit from different tongues
You can never corrupt me again"
-Dimmu Borgir

Devil6Ov6Kitties6, Please go to Wikipedia and check out the entry
"Infanticide (Zoology)". The article addresses your post about the animal kingdom.
Respects,

_________________
Some people walk into our lives and leave footprints on our heart.

Damnit!
Well...it was worth a shot. But I still think that "love" is one of the sources of morals. "Love" being concern for others' safety, health, and existence.

_________________
"My word and world holds ground and is real
Your world is like floods of poisoned water
A language spoken with spit from different tongues
You can never corrupt me again"
-Dimmu Borgir

perhaps you should read this thread before you make that comment:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4480

_________________
ceytin
-------
"Learn to accept, even welcome pain - for if you do not fear pain... if the thought of physical, emotional or spiritual anguish cannot dissuade you from the true path - then no enemy, however strong, can defeat you...no struggle, however long, can deter you...nor circumstance, however wrong, can keep you from your destiny."

You know what?

I'll stick with being educated in music and stop trying to stick my nose into philosophy for a little bit.

_________________
"My word and world holds ground and is real
Your world is like floods of poisoned water
A language spoken with spit from different tongues
You can never corrupt me again"
-Dimmu Borgir

I think it was Nietzsche who said that your auto biograpy is your philosophy. The very fact you are here shows that you are questioning ,curious , and open to new ideas. I find it useful to go through the libertine section to pick up on other peoples experiences and to ask questions of others in the forums.
Respects,

_________________
Some people walk into our lives and leave footprints on our heart.

educated in music? a formal education? are you studying to be a musician?

you give up too quickly. instead of focusing on your strengths you should address your weaknesses. If you know little about philosophy then you should spend more time reading and learning in that area than in an area where you already have a lot of knowledge.

The Libertine system will help you to address any shortcomings.

_________________
ceytin
-------
"Learn to accept, even welcome pain - for if you do not fear pain... if the thought of physical, emotional or spiritual anguish cannot dissuade you from the true path - then no enemy, however strong, can defeat you...no struggle, however long, can deter you...nor circumstance, however wrong, can keep you from your destiny."

Yes, I am studying to be a musician.

Thanks for the advice.

_________________
"My word and world holds ground and is real
Your world is like floods of poisoned water
A language spoken with spit from different tongues
You can never corrupt me again"
-Dimmu Borgir

I believe morality is built into you. I've never been a religious person and have always been kind to people.

Anyone who thinks that man would be immoral without "God" or Jesus's "teachings" are just brainwashed into thinking that way.

_________________
"Man was meant to live, not just to exist". - Evel Knievel

Evil, good... in the end it does not matter. Good or bad, you will go the way of all flesh. Man needs no help to be demonic or angelic. Some choose to be good or bad and some simply are born good or bad for whatever reason be it genetic defect or psychopathy. All we can do is try to make our way in this cold, cruel world. Morality needs no God though having one does tend to give more legitimacy to the ethical code in question. It is not truely neccessary though.

_________________
Our father whoart in Hell unhallowed be thy name. Thy dominion come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Hell. Grant us this day our daily pleasure and bring suffering to our enemies... and lead us not into slavery but deliver us unto freedom. For thine is the power and the glory and the majesty forever and ever. Hail Satan

Woo! Super fun content! Thank ya.

The theist's argument that without religion, we lack a sense of morals is completely absurd! It is, in my mind, a rebuttal that comes from scraping the bottom the barrel. It's on par with the argument, "even if there isn't a god, I'm playing it safe with faith." Unfortunately, someone that doesn't give evolution, logic, or reason the time of day probably won't give any respectable study the time of day, either.
While I completely agree that humans are born with a sense of what is moral and with empathy, I think another noteworthy point is that we have other forces in place (ie, a hopefully unbaised judicial system) that helps keep us in line. On top of that, as someone that was initially born into a secular home, my family helped instill a good set of values within me at an early age. It didn't take a religious preference for them to be decent parents.






Also, Bill O'Reilly. lol

_________________
someone get this girl a drink and an ashtray.

Greetings All,

Ahh morality - it really is in many ways a stink in the nose .. but of course only others choices offend! lol

To be serious though, I have found over my last decades of experience in various differing occult fields (how tossy is that!? None the less true to my shame! lol) that the alleged presence of Gods of any shade has "Nowt t'do wi' it!"

I have seen more people hiding behind the presence or absence of Gods as a reason to engage in stupid behaviours and unacceptable behaviours to last me a life time. There is only so many times one can say: "If your God is real he must be damn embarrassed to be the inspiration for you!" before it ceases being a joke and becomes a moment of dismay.

Right and wrong in the fine tune are of course functions of society and the tacitly accepted modes of comport (that are the art that is influenced and influences in turn) are constantly under revision. Today we decry child marriage yet at one stage it was accepted custom. Today we champion the equal rights of homosexual and lesbian marriage, not so long ago it was verboten .. and before that again not even an issue. The various examples are bewildering for those seeking a stable line of moralistic descent. Of course one is expected to do certain things and in certain ways and not others and as times and hair styles change - so must we. That is a fact of integration BUT at the same time I have found that those I have encountered over the years that do not have their OWN internal code of conduct are insufferable.

To be honest I am unsure how arguably such codes can be said to equate with "Morals" as most understand the term - largely because I have never bothered to investigate it. That said however, I firmly believe that each must look within themselves and discover who and what they are and then set some boundaries. That these will change as time and experience changes is a given but there must be first a boundary before one may change a boundary.

Conduct is of course how these inner codes interact with wider accepted norms. There are some simple genetic boundaries that tend to show up as norms and are reinforced by way of things such as empathy but again experience is a great modifier .. the world is a big place and as it changes day by day so do we. Hence amidst the changing world we inhabit surely it behoves us to make our own rules when such are required .. and no man may build on water and a fool alone builds on sand.

Personally I'd say only a shoddy workman would build upon a theoretical construct and then believe it to be stone. Gods? Perhaps we are an in that way make it true but my jury is still out to lunch on that.

Fraternally

BTP

_________________
Le n’ai rien ne soit a toi, en ton nom Seigneur cette tienne servante s’oingt, et dois ester quelque iour Diable et maling Esprit comme toi. Venez, O Antecessor. Venez, venez, O Diable. Venez, Prince et Pere. Venez, Dieu.

Aaah religious morality how I love thee.

Religion is the ultimate form of mass control and dammit if it doesn't work, and how do you control someone completely, why my old friend fear lets scare the uneducated and the silly and the impressionable with the idea the eye in the sky is watching and he knows everything your doing. And wait he doesn't like these things here's a convenient list for you study, okay cool so time rolls by and what do you get all, people who are raised to believe that their behaviours should be governed by gods will as delivered by a man conveniently. So it's nothing to add a few in there is it hate the gays, abortions are evil no after what and so on and so on. But here's the thing, it's crap, somehow these same people who make the rules thinks nobody is watching them when they do all manner of things it's like a magic show where your so fixated on one thing you miss the other. Morality doesn't come from religion control comes from religion in the form of morality because who can argue? If you think its wrong then your a bad person, and who really wants that. Morality comes from morals themselves I don't kill take what's yours because I know what is to be robbed, I don't hit you because I do not wish to be struck etc etc and not just because someone tells me so. If we were all killing each other before religion than how was any of us around to be submitted to it anyway. It's not the atheist or the satanist morals that are frightening its the lack of inherent morality of the religious when they figure out god isn't watching. Everything is up for grabs then, forced morality is easily discarded when desired and championed when required, it is flawed and in and of itself provides the greatest window of opportunity for some seriously depraved shit to go on. Because the biggest problem you have when you actually follow it is that if something isn't specifically mentioned or Grey in some way then you get to just make it up, abortions are kind of like murder and murders bad and god didn't really thoroughly explain what to do here so I'm just going to presume that means its open season on their asses. While the atheist will trust his judgment and decide for himself based on inherent morals, the truly religious will just unleash whatever the party line is, and if the religion says its ok then it's got to be moral right? The only people
Who will act like animals if religion disapears are the religious.

_________________
if you are in need of help cry out and I may listen,
if you are in need of pity, stay silent and I will ignore.

I do not think there's any reason to even desire an explanation for morality.

People don't like doing things that feel wrong to them, so they don't do them. The end.