Live Chat

"Three Obstacles" was good. It's the kind of thing that I can grasp on an intellectual level fairly easily, but it's a bitch to apply in day to day life. Most of the trouble is me psyching myself out, forgetting myself, or simply not making the effort. I'm reminded of Disney's Alice in Wonderland: "I give myself very good advice, but I very seldom follow it."

At least I know what it is I want, and how to achieve it, and that's more than many can say for themselves. I've gotten better, but there's always room for improvement.



I wouldn't write off anything seemingly RHP so quickly. It was my initial instinct to do so when I first became acquainted with the LHP about a year ago, but I've since discovered a tool is a tool.

RHP essentially is about denying one's own interest, whereas LHP is about serving it. But it's impossible to always serve one's own interest if one constantly identifies with moment-to-moment impulses. My very own desires conflict with one another. I want to eat icecream all the time, but I also want a good figure and complexion. I want to beat the living shit out of my irritating coworker, but I also want not to go to prison. I can't have both. Whatever I do for my own sake will end up denying some of "my" impulses.

If there are effective methods by which I may overcome self destructive impulses, why not use them? If it's for the purpose of serving my greater interest overall (as opposed to subordinated my interest to some external deity), who cares if the RHP also uses said method for that purpose?

If self-control were exclusively an RHP quality, I'd sure hate to be a Satanist.

_________________
Senseless as beasts I gave men sense, possessed them of mind.

XiaoGui17,



I fear you have completely missed the point.

_________________
There is trouble in the forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the maples scream 'Oppression!'
And the oaks just shake their heads

Funny, I just mentioned something along these lines.

Oftentimes when I am accused of "missing the point," it appears the person making said accusation is the one who misunderstood what I was getting at. But if you really think I'm in the dark, by all means, elucidate this ever evasive 'point' which many accuse me of failing to grasp yet none are willing to state concretely.

_________________
Senseless as beasts I gave men sense, possessed them of mind.

No need to get your panties in a twist. If you think I was arguing against self control, or that it is even attainable though, much less mutually exclusive to RHP methods, as indicated by the sentence I quoted, you have missed the point of what I was saying.

The context of the text you quoted was a discussion(that I don't recall you adding anything to) about whether or not the CoC was LHP, and I was pointing out why it is not.

What value you find in RHP methods and all that other babble is neither here nor there, and beside the point. (as well as quite neophytic and uninteresting)

_________________
There is trouble in the forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the maples scream 'Oppression!'
And the oaks just shake their heads

As for my allegedly twisted panties, I'm with Ceytin on your testosterone levels causing you to perceive everything as hostile. I was more amused than anything.



I didn't think you were arguing against self-control. I just think, if you wrote off any and all things remotely appearing to be "RHP" at a first glance, it would end up with a total lack of self control as a final result. That quip was intended to demonstrate where your position would lead you if you followed it out to its rational conclusion, and its efficacy as a deterrent would thus depend on you not advocating such a position.



My comments about the efficacy of RHP methods mentioned by the CoC were specifically addressing how they were relevant to the LHP as I saw it. Sorry if I didn't show up frequently enough in the middle of the convo for your liking; I have responsibilities outside the MCoS.



Beside the point? Up and until my post, people were questioning you over whether RHP methods were absolutely useless or not. (Ceytin, King, etc) I would have thought my statement about their potential value was certainly relevant to that. And whether or not the methods described in "Three Obstacles" are useful is, I think, salient to whether the CoC is a worthwhile contribution to the LHP.

P.S. If you perceive my post as hostile, picture it in your head peppered with smilie faces. Or heck, check my avatar.

_________________
Senseless as beasts I gave men sense, possessed them of mind.

I believe that human beings are slightly more than mere animals. The Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey also backs me up here, not to mention science and spirituality.

The idea isn't to become something we are not, but to maximize our potential.

Ordinary animals do not possess consciousness at the same level as human beings. Surely, even you can understand that, Dan. Human consciousness revolves around awareness. Heightened awareness equals superior consciousness. The Fourth Way is nothing if not the struggle to increase the multi-dimensional clarity and focus of individual consciousness.

The Cult of Cthulhu and philosophical heart of our religion, the Fourth Way, is most definitely Left Hand Path.




Are you saying that the CoC is more external than internal? I don't see why because our paradigm is about the individual rising above all the noise, the nonsense, the plastic of existence which has precious little substance. In the CoC and 4th Way, the self is king... just as working on oneself is key to self-deification.




That is very interesting; we could discuss that further, JK.




Yes, this is precisely what I'm getting at.

I just don't see how using various techniques and methods to improve the self comes across as right hand path? If it's about me having some kind of authoritative role, then I'm sorry but I don't believe in anarchy or across-the-board egalitarianism.




Now you're just paraphrasing me or what I've written on the CoC website, Dan. Reality is more malleable and the LHP practitioner can use or manipulate reality by changing himself. From internal change flows external change. That means results are built from the ground up, as you put it.



Again, these are not right hand path ideas! It is the intent, not the methodology which makes something rhp or LHP. For example, if self control is used to champion the universe's agenda, then it is rhp. If self control is used to champion the individual's own agenda, then it is clearly LHP.

Me, I want to destroy consensual or generally accepted reality in favor of programing and installing my own. The foundation of which rests upon the fact that I will become God. That's what the Cult of Cthulhu is about. If anyone wants to keep confusing us or our philosophy with the rhp, then sure... keep flapping your jaw or mashing the keyboard with your monkey paw.




That right there is a positive result. It is difficult to apply these concepts in one's life but rewarding. Don't let the bastards wear you down, XiaoGui17. Keep at it!


Awake!

Venger As'Nas Satanis
High Priest
Cult of Cthulhu

_________________
http://www.CultofCthulhu.net

Venger, (Did you really get that name from dungeons and dragons? LOL)



Your use of the word mere here is quite telling.


LOL. So you are trying to say there is some magical X factor that makes us somehow separate from every other living thing? And in the same breath deny your RHP leanings? That's pretty funny.

For the record, claims made by anton lavey regarding biology are hardly convincing, there is no credible biologist on earth that would claim we aren't animals, or that could scientifically postulate that we are somehow 'more' than animals (as that is a religious claim not a scientific one) , and 'spirituality' is for the sheep. You are just full to the brim with RHP trappings and ideas.


HEH. Even me, with my meager IQ of 150 must be able to understand something so simple, right? Well it turns out to be not the case. I do not share your religious belief regarding humanities special place in the universe.

Got any evidence to back up this claim? Aquino didn't. What you and Aquino(who I am mentioning because you seem to have borrowed many of his ideas) seem to share is a good healthy religious faith.


If this is the case, every tiger in the jungle is 100x more conscious than you will ever be.



Well, yes. In your 4th way system you have simply installed yourself as the 'good Shepard'. Oh sorry...guru.


Yes..the poor naturally broken self, that can only be 'fixed' by someone like you. The only difference between what you are doing and what joe pastor down the street is doing is a matter of aesthetics. Joe pastor also wants to 'fix' his poor broken flock, keep them on the right path to 'true' enlightenment.

_________________
There is trouble in the forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the maples scream 'Oppression!'
And the oaks just shake their heads

Is Satanism at Any Point RHP?

within certain paradigms or systems, yes. that is, they are employed as methodologies toward the same aims. whether they actually produce the same overall results is debatable.

paradigms are strictly conceptual and internal. as you have noted, the origin/extension of 'LHP'/'RHP' suggests pragmatic differences, particularly as this relates to the literal and symbolic, transgressive and societal, and self-centered or community-conformant.

this is the 4th Way description of their aims. are these truly compatible with Satanism? many Satanists describe promethean, luciferian, Gnostic, and Buddhist aims for their endeavours. how many of these are legitimate, and by whose standards? Satanists all?

in Buddhist contexts there are lists of attributes of success. Gnosticism and Hermeticism also include character and/or condition qualitative descriptions of adepts (arriving-spots/platforms).

I found practices and esoteric ideals expressed by mystics within them to be useful in self-development. I can understand how the top-down group model might make accessible certain experiences and growth unavailable on one's own due to a lack of focus, discipline, or experience. yet with sufficient will and personal discipline, these may be embraced on an individual level to an extent, and from them a solitary may benefit (in part helpfully described by Marsha Sinetar in "Ordinary People as Monks and Mystics").

in particular, i found "The Silent Life" by Thomas Merton, and a number of diary and autobiographical accounts of nuns (Buddhist) and yogic chelas (Hindus) to be helpful in my career as a neo-tantric monk (a tyagi). I also interviewed several Roman Catholic nuns, focussing on their relationship to Jesus as being married to him, one or two Buddhist nuns, and one or two Zen Buddhist monks. as i encountered them (i rarely sought them out in Christian context, though i intentionally engaged a number of Buddhists, Hindus, Neopagans and even some Muslims) i asked officials in conventional religious groups what their practices and social roles included, and what they could tell me about their relationship to their deity/deities.

I would later follow this up with interviews with many New Agers, Thelemites and Neopagans regarding similar topical foci, and i felt that i learned a great deal to supplement my practical pursuits. I was most strongly inspired by the temple of ISKCON in the South San Francisco Bay (who were possibly breaking with their parent organization when i encountered them). their bhakti (emotional) devotion to their deity, artistic celebration, and general enthusiasm was contageous and gave me reason to associate this with many devotional religious practices with which i was already familiar (such as Jesus worship). in combination with Neopagan worship, this encouraged me to focus on this in my own spiritual practices. I liked the joyous, pleased, sensual outcomes enjoined in reverence to deities, whether as part of social functions or as a solitary activity.

another minor aspect which i appreciated greatly about the conventional religious organizations i encountered was their charity. where this was coherent, holistic, and supportive of those in need, i felt it was an admirable selection of pursuits. granted that their doctrines at times work against the best effects which seem possible, certain generous applications of their compassion (e.g. hospice) seem both beneficial and outstanding in its usefulness to others at certain points in life. I cannot think of a time when i have sought and found remarkable benefit from these myself, but perhaps we might mention that Anton LaVey received medical care and died in a Roman Catholic hospital (St. Mary's)? was he born in one too?

_________________
Troll Towelhead, Grand Mufti of Satanism
http://www.youtube.com/user/TrollTowelhead
http://www.gospel-of-satan.com

I'd agree that it's the intent that's really important; the only thing which matters to me about the method is efficacy. As for the rhp/LHP distinction, I was partially humoring Dan's definition. It is called "left/right hand path" instead of "left/right hand destination", which, to me, designates a method more than a goal. Regardless of what we're calling it, I prefer to use every resource that works.

_________________
Senseless as beasts I gave men sense, possessed them of mind.

_________________
http://www.CultofCthulhu.net

Rest assured, "high priest", I certainly do not represent the mcos in any way shape or form.

I have demolished your claim on the LHP. I can see that you are seething with anger over it. Given these facts I will excuse that you were unable to face my criticisms and instead chose the low road for your last post.

No big deal though right? The sorts of rubes that buy what you are selling want flash, not substance anyway. I'm sure you will go right on pretending that 4th way is LHP, and your sheep will continue grazing on it.

You may now resume pretending to be a bigshot. How are those portraits selling?

_________________
There is trouble in the forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the maples scream 'Oppression!'
And the oaks just shake their heads

Dan and Venger - Please remain on topic.

Why is it we dislike someone when they disagree with us?
Dammit, I disagree with both of you on lot of stuff, and you disagree with me on just about everything - but do you see me getting personal and all wounded?

Why do you tie your egos to these posts?
You both seem to be very intelligent yet you cannot separate your egos from your ideas.

I hold you both to a higher standard.
You may not be members of the MCoS - but I expect more from men of your calibre and intelligence.
So quit the personal comments and bullshit. Not because i want you to like each other, but because it serves no purpose and is counter productive for this board.

_________________
ceytin
-------
"Learn to accept, even welcome pain - for if you do not fear pain... if the thought of physical, emotional or spiritual anguish cannot dissuade you from the true path - then no enemy, however strong, can defeat you...no struggle, however long, can deter you...nor circumstance, however wrong, can keep you from your destiny."

I personally think that there would be no downside to both Dan_Dread or Venger Satanas disappearing from this forum. I've yet to see either bring anything of real value. Both speak in smoke and mirrors and, deep down, I really think they are the same person. Their similarities are what cause them to clash.

_________________
---Rob

"I went to god just to see and I was looking at me. Saw heaven and hell were lies. When I'm god, everyone dies." - MM

What part of "stay on topic" was unclear?

If your comment has nothing to do with the topic please refrain from posting it.

I am going to be deleting counterproductive comments from now on.

_________________
ceytin
-------
"Learn to accept, even welcome pain - for if you do not fear pain... if the thought of physical, emotional or spiritual anguish cannot dissuade you from the true path - then no enemy, however strong, can defeat you...no struggle, however long, can deter you...nor circumstance, however wrong, can keep you from your destiny."

4th Way Self-Deification?

many Satanists believe in the X factor. many humans seem to. such a contention merely disqualifies a strict materialist position.


nice to hear you say that. could you quote some conventional 4th Way source supporting you on this?


I know this is a convention of the Cult of Cthulhu, but is self-deification per se something espoused as an aim or interest by 4th Way teachers prior to the CoC? if so, where can i find such exhortation? I'm not sure i'm willing to wade through entire books to find it, but if you can point me in a somewhat specific direction that would be helpful to me. thanks.


the rational reply is that this discerns with the least amount of effort and a potentially offensive tactic between those who are sovereign and those who are in serious need. the 'You are broken.' rhetoric 'hits' for those who are broken, and these people are therefore attracted because they find a fit. after that phenomenon what happens is largely unobserved by us, but it may range from the nefarious to the benefic. this is why i asked Venger for some details on how many people he has accepted as students/chelas and what their proportions of positive response have been, whether he has any testimonials, etc. -- humility or lack of interest of focus on track record for whatever reason may preclude his response, but your supposition of the most nefarious seems to me out of place without some kind of justification.


I am not seeing this. please quote anyone from the CoC stating that the fixing can only be done by them, that they, rather than the individual who seeks to become empowered, must do the work on them(selves). I think you're exaggerating here.


the pastor indicates that the sheep in the flock each have a moral rather than a personal and practical problem. the pastor identifies his deity as being the sole source of rectification for this moral problem ("No one comes to the Father but through Me {Jesus}."). the post-mortem condition to avoid the torment extortion offered up as the alternative is only available, according to the pastor, from that god.

contrariwise, i do not hear from the CoC that the Old Ones are the only source of help, that this is some kind of moral problem, or that Venger or any of those who have positions reflecting responsibility are being billed as the only ones who can 'fix' people. more often there is a description as to how people can help themselves, primarily by eradicating or disposing of self-delusions as they identify them and thereafter taking up personal power. I may argue that this Buddhistic ideology at points substitutes New Improved ideologies in place of those maintained by the ones needing fixing, but this is an old (and conventional) Buddhistic (/mystical) technique of assistance, and not a necessary indicator of corruption.

you claim that this is "RHP", and you seem to be saying that your justification for this is that it is an organization, that a coalition of those offering a system/philosophy they find helpful in self-empowerment to others is the same as an institution moulding and crafting someone into refinement. your analysis is confusing to me, Dan, and i would like to understand it better. I don't know why you think that the RHP deserves your acid. I don't know why you think that all organizations are RHP. I don't know why you think that all suppositions of magical X factor constitute RHP character. if i have erred, please be patient with me. correct me where i am getting the wrong impression. thanks.

_________________
Troll Towelhead, Grand Mufti of Satanism
http://www.youtube.com/user/TrollTowelhead
http://www.gospel-of-satan.com